The GCC Energy Outlook with Carmen Hamze

00:00:00: Everyone was talking about net zero, the environment, let's get rid of hydrocarbons, et cetera.

00:00:05: And what I've come to realize in the last ten years working in the energy sector, that there's not one solution that's going to solve everything.

00:00:11: It's multiple.

00:00:12: Nuclear will still be part of the mix somewhere.

00:00:15: We still need gas, data sensors.

00:00:16: They will require a lot of energy.

00:00:17: This is what could potentially create one of the biggest energy hubs in the world.

00:00:28: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the second episode of Beyond the Deck.

00:00:32: here at Roland Burger.

00:00:34: This is the podcast where we jump out of the PowerPoint decks and into the stories that are shaping in the region and, of course, also the world.

00:00:42: Today, we're going to be focusing on the energy sector here across the GCC.

00:00:47: And with me, I have an esteemed colleague, Carmen Hamze, who's been working on the energy sector for over fourteen years across the GCC.

00:00:57: And she's a partner here with us in Roland Burger.

00:00:59: So, first of all, a warm welcome to the podcast.

00:01:03: Thank you very much.

00:01:03: It's good to be here and I hope we will have an insightful conversation.

00:01:07: Great.

00:01:08: We'll make it nice and energetic.

00:01:11: So just to get us started, Carmen, if you could just give us a little bit of what the current landscape is of the energy sector here across the GCC.

00:01:20: It's a good question.

00:01:21: I would say it's exciting times to be working and engaging in the energy sector in the GCC.

00:01:28: If I want to take a look back or look at the outlook, I would summarize it in three aspects.

00:01:34: One, there's a shift from previously being focusing on siloed energy subsectors like oil and gas.

00:01:42: And now it's more about a portfolio approach.

00:01:47: So meaning we're looking at AI and the impact of, let's say, data centers and the need for renewable energy.

00:01:58: Two, looking at... gas as the backbone because you're going to have renewable energy going in.

00:02:05: Then you have low carbon molecules like low LNG, hydrogen, CCUS.

00:02:14: And then you have the traditional oil and gas, which now is.

00:02:18: the shift is more towards sustainable energy.

00:02:22: But it's a balance, thinking about it based on the trilemma, sustainability.

00:02:30: energy security and affordability.

00:02:33: So that's what guides the approach.

00:02:36: And as you can see, if you look back five years ago, everyone was talking about net zero, the environment, let's get rid of hydrocarbons, et cetera.

00:02:47: The GCC took a balanced approach.

00:02:51: And I think now, Everyone's taking the same approach and they are ahead in the thinking.

00:02:57: They think about sustainable energy.

00:02:59: You need to capture the carbon.

00:03:00: But at the same time, we need to make sure we have secure sources of energy.

00:03:07: You need to have reliable energy.

00:03:09: So those are all different aspects that are shaping the energy sector in the GCC.

00:03:14: Excellent.

00:03:14: Well, thanks.

00:03:15: There's a lot to unpack there, right?

00:03:17: And I really like what you mentioned regarding this portfolio approach, taking more of an integrated from multiple sources, right?

00:03:25: But you also mentioned this, some things that are on the demand side, like the data centers and some things on the supply side, like renewable energy generation, etc.

00:03:35: Of all these trends, which ones do you see as being the most, let's say immediate, right?

00:03:41: Because I've been hearing about green hydrogen, for example, for a while.

00:03:46: You know, Andrew Forrest, for example, out of Australia was really driving this five years ago.

00:03:50: Now it's kind of, I feel at least there's some loss of momentum in green hydrogen.

00:03:55: Tell me a little bit about what are the immediate breakthroughs that we're going to see that are really going to drive the next, you know.

00:04:01: five years or something.

00:04:03: I'm still of a believer that it's still going to be there.

00:04:05: But before they were assuming it's going to be the solution to all.

00:04:10: And what I've come to realize in the last ten years working in the energy sector, that there's not one solution that's going to solve everything.

00:04:19: It's multiple, right?

00:04:20: Green hydrogen will still be in place.

00:04:22: And you can see in Saudi Arabia they're still investing with the new green hydrogen company.

00:04:27: They still want to produce hydrogen.

00:04:29: They want to use it for hard to abate sectors.

00:04:31: Thinking about okay, how do I export it in the future?

00:04:35: How do I build an ecosystem around it so that there's not much cost on the transport side, right?

00:04:40: Okay That's one area that will still be there, but it will go slowly because it all depends on the technology and the evolution of the technology.

00:04:47: The second part which I think will will be very key in the short term and medium term is LNG and CC us.

00:04:56: okay CC us being

00:04:57: carbon capture utilization sequestration because At the moment, we still need hydrocarbons in a way.

00:05:04: We are using LNG as the substitute because it's lower.

00:05:08: Yeah, like

00:05:08: a transition fuel.

00:05:09: Transition fuel, exactly.

00:05:10: But you're still having carbon emission.

00:05:12: You need to capture that because we still need to protect the environment.

00:05:15: And there's a lot of segue and improvements and evolution in the development of that.

00:05:20: And also around commercializing it.

00:05:23: It's not enough just to capture it, but how do I create a hub where maybe, let's say, the GCC will capture the will be involved in some capture, but also storage.

00:05:33: So they will bring in some CO two from other countries to store it and make a whole economic model around that.

00:05:40: So there's a lot of discussion around that.

00:05:41: And this seems more of a practical approach in the medium term, I would say.

00:05:45: Okay.

00:05:46: And just a little point on that is that is it also that countries that have a history of being, you know, quite let's say having large hydrocarbons sectors have a bit of an advantage in the CCUS because of the presence of reservoirs and their understanding of subsurface.

00:06:03: Absolutely, because the technology has been used before, especially upstream when they want to

00:06:10: re-inject

00:06:11: it.

00:06:13: So they still have that advantage and they have the know-how and they have the investment and there's trust because so let's say the kingdom cannot, or the UAE, they won't be able to do it alone.

00:06:24: And this is something you see a lot.

00:06:25: And even, I think during ADIPAC, they were talking about it.

00:06:29: The success that the GCC has done is through partnerships and through bringing the whole ecosystem together.

00:06:35: And that is what is making it a success here.

00:06:38: And this is what could potentially create one of the biggest energy hubs in the world.

00:06:44: I think some years back, we had a bit of almost a bit of an emotional reaction, right?

00:06:50: the latest science that came out and people got a bit let's say freaked out and there was a bit of a let's say emotional jump whereas I think now we're taking a little bit more of a more balanced approach.

00:07:01: Yes

00:07:01: I would say that and what really was a aha moment was what happened with Russia's invasion to Ukraine.

00:07:11: And this really hit the cord.

00:07:14: OK, we still need gas.

00:07:16: So we still need those what they call bad energy solutions.

00:07:22: But we still need them.

00:07:23: And when it comes to the net zero and using zero emission type of solutions, we're not there yet.

00:07:30: So that brought everyone back.

00:07:32: to a bit of a realism that we still want net zero, but we need to approach it differently.

00:07:39: Okay.

00:07:40: Okay.

00:07:40: So on this, just focusing on net zero for a second, in terms of, you know, the energy transition, right?

00:07:46: I hear that.

00:07:48: So the golf is taking this kind of balanced approach.

00:07:51: However, I imagine that there's probably still a lot of challenges on the horizon, right?

00:07:56: So, for example, in the case of KSA, all the investment that's coming in through Vision twenty thirty, the giga projects, the industrial projects, demographic growth itself.

00:08:06: Not to mention also just the consumer behavior, right, where historically energy has been quite subsidized and so people are used to cheap energy.

00:08:19: How are all these dimensions, let's say, being tackled by some of the stakeholders that you're working on?

00:08:24: I know that you work with a lot of the key stakeholders around topics.

00:08:28: like national energy strategies and transition strategies, give me perhaps a few of the key policy measures or interventions that are being used to solve some of these challenges that are blocking the energy transition.

00:08:43: That's

00:08:43: a very good question.

00:08:44: What I would say is the enablers for the success of the energy sector in the GCC is looking at attracting foreign direct investment.

00:08:55: enabling more private sector participation.

00:08:58: And one big theme that is also a huge neighbor for the energy sector is localization and import-export within the sector.

00:09:09: And how are they all working together is quite interesting.

00:09:13: If I take KSA, for example, you have the Ministry of Energy pushing through policy.

00:09:18: You have PIF pushing the right... JV, the right partnerships that are aligned to the sustainable energy umbrella that we're not moving more towards hydrocarbons, the aqua powers, the new PIF entities that will be coming into play.

00:09:36: And then you have, let's say you take the other, if I want to talk about the utilities like SEC, looking at expanding, how to expand the network, how to apply digital solutions and data and analytics.

00:09:50: in order to be able to improve the overall operations through enabling predictive analytics, for example, or having the right data to make insight-driven decision-making to better plan your construction projects and eventually optimize on your optics and capex.

00:10:07: So these are all different elements that are driving the success of... of the kingdom and I would say similar themes will are coming out in across the GCC.

00:10:18: Okay, excellent.

00:10:19: Yeah, and I think I mean what's interesting also here in the region is that this region is already an energy hub, right?

00:10:25: A fossil fuel based but still and whether it's its oil, whether it's gas, you know, the likes of Qatar, global leaders on the LNG field for example.

00:10:34: And now just this potential for them to maintain, so the energy transition will not take them off the global stage of energy, it will just be a different stage or a different, let's say, lighting of the stage.

00:10:46: I would call it the shift from the energy transition to sustainable energy.

00:10:51: Okay,

00:10:52: okay.

00:10:52: This is how I would define this phase.

00:10:57: of the whole energy journey.

00:10:59: Before it was energy transition, how do we move away?

00:11:01: But now it's about how do we ensure sustainable energy across the region and the world, right?

00:11:07: Because in the end, what happens here will be a ripple effect across the world.

00:11:13: So when you say sustainable, then in this scenario, you mean sustainability not purely from an environmental perspective, but also from an energy security perspective and affordability.

00:11:23: Yes, absolutely.

00:11:25: All of that, absolutely.

00:11:26: And also, if I think of sustainable energy, yes, I need to make sure I have a reliable grid, for example, so that I have power on for my people.

00:11:36: That's one example.

00:11:37: I want to make it practical.

00:11:39: I want to make sure if I am producing energy, producing specific hydrocarbons, I have my carbon capture solutions so that that energy is sustainable because I need to use it abroad.

00:11:49: So those are different examples of what we mean by sustainable energy.

00:11:52: And at the same time, I want to make sure that whatever approach I bring for it, it's affordable.

00:12:00: So it's not too expensive on the government and not too expensive on the people.

00:12:04: Okay, excellent.

00:12:05: And also not too expensive for the industrial off-takers as well that needed as a key input.

00:12:10: It's interesting you're mentioning off-takers because that's also another, I forgot to mention it before, that the success is big dreams, but how do you get to the execution?

00:12:21: Because in the energy sector, you talk about big mega projects, capital intensive, they take time and they require a lot of funding.

00:12:31: So how do you make these projects bankable?

00:12:33: What's the right off-take agreements that you need to have in place where it's not just money thrown at it, it's real partnership between the different partners and that whoever's involved in this really feels that they're bringing in equal value to whatever approach they're taking.

00:12:50: So that's also something that we need to bear in mind.

00:12:52: And on that vein, do you see also the emergence of different business models within energy?

00:12:58: For example, more of a move towards independent power producers.

00:13:05: off-grid solutions, smaller grids.

00:13:07: I don't know anything around that, or it's still going to be the large integrated utilities players.

00:13:12: It's interesting.

00:13:13: We had a massive discussion about this a couple of weeks ago with the client and the different perspectives.

00:13:18: And you see in Europe where off-grid and distributed energy sources is quite big.

00:13:22: Here, at least, maybe I'll give an example more of the Kingdom than the UAE.

00:13:26: They're taking more of a centralized approach when it comes to that.

00:13:29: And there are many reasons for that.

00:13:31: But given the massive of population and the demand, at least at this stage, taking a central approach makes sense because... When you want to expand the network or you want to understand the demand, having it centrally is not a bottleneck, but it's creating a more safer approach to understanding where you want to invest,

00:13:55: especially

00:13:56: when it comes to the grid.

00:13:58: OK, excellent.

00:14:00: So now you already touched on this a little bit, but we kind of have to get back to it because it's such a hot topic, which is, of course, AI.

00:14:08: And we're all loving chat GPT and all the great LLMs that are out there.

00:14:15: And also, I mean, it's completely revolutionizing our sector, for example, in consulting.

00:14:21: But behind all that is, of course, the data center story.

00:14:25: And behind the data center story is the energy story, right?

00:14:28: And we're all seeing these billions of dollars of investments into data center capacity going into the UAE, you know, driven by Abu Dhabi, for example, and also in the kingdom, mainly driven by the new announcement Humane, right?

00:14:42: The PIF AI champion.

00:14:44: And with that, the whole ecosystem, the Qualcoms, the NVIDIAs.

00:14:50: Tell me just a little bit more around this, where you see this AI demand going, right?

00:14:57: Because there's some people might be a little bit skeptical about this boom, that, you know, how long is this boom going to last and at what scale and is it going to continue to accelerate at that rate?

00:15:10: Now, if it were software, you could scale up and down very easily.

00:15:14: That's not a problem.

00:15:15: But when you have these large infrastructure projects to back this computing power up both from a power but also from a cooling perspective which is very important as computing densities get higher and higher and of course we're in a very hot region.

00:15:31: so tell us a little bit about how that balance is being achieved in AI.

00:15:36: It's

00:15:37: a very good question and I would say transparently this is what's on the mind of many policymakers as well as investors.

00:15:45: Okay, do I invest?

00:15:47: First of all, the different countries in the GCC are competing to attract these data centers into their country.

00:15:55: And then this is where who will provide the best value proposition for these data centers.

00:15:59: And cost of energy is one major driver for where they decide to set up.

00:16:05: So that's one.

00:16:07: The second is the understanding, okay, as someone in the power sector, a planner, Today, based on what I know today, this is what I forecast the demand to be.

00:16:21: And then based on that, I'm going to build my grid or expand it or modernize it or whatever I want to do.

00:16:27: But this technology may change in five, ten years.

00:16:30: And I've just planned and approved investments.

00:16:33: So that's the risk there now.

00:16:35: The only way I would say is you can approach it is through scenario planning.

00:16:42: Meaning, you need to first, as a foundation, build a resilient strategy as a country.

00:16:48: But also define what scenarios are most likely going to happen.

00:16:54: Based on those scenarios, you define the course of action moving forward.

00:16:59: And through that, you will be able to mitigate a lot of the risk and the cost.

00:17:06: Okay, all very interesting and things that are probably keeping you very busy and our clients very busy.

00:17:14: Staying still within this world of digital, okay?

00:17:18: Not that I mean, I think AI now is kind of past digital, it's everything.

00:17:22: But there's a lot also happening within the energy sector around, for example, digitalization, smart grids, a lot of automation, smart sensors, all of that.

00:17:36: Tell me a little bit about that space in terms of how the digital tools and digital solutions are actually helping things like energy efficiency.

00:17:47: So tell me a little bit

00:17:48: about that part.

00:17:49: Maybe I'll start from the because we didn't touch a little bit around the customer experience side.

00:17:52: So let's say if we take smart meters for the first time now, you can have real time data on actual consumption of customers.

00:18:01: In this case, first, the bills are more accurate.

00:18:04: And two consumers can have a view of their consumption patterns.

00:18:08: This can help drive, so the retail operators can use this to drive efficiency solutions, energy efficiency solutions to reduce the consumption.

00:18:18: And also gives them visibility as a household, oh, I'm spending this much, maybe I should cut on this side on that.

00:18:25: So you have

00:18:25: some

00:18:26: behavior changes.

00:18:27: And also, you can monetize on this data.

00:18:31: Okay.

00:18:32: You use, you understand how consumers behave through that.

00:18:36: And they could use it as, there's been a lot of talk around data monetization and whatnot.

00:18:40: So that's one area.

00:18:41: Still niche, but there's been a lot of pilots and experiments out there on that.

00:18:45: So there's that part.

00:18:46: And then you have using digital and AI to modernize the grid.

00:18:53: And that's been a lot through IoT, through sensors, through using these data centers.

00:18:58: Predictive maintenance

00:18:59: and all that.

00:19:01: And then the last one is you could say using digital data and AI to mainly data, I would say, to make what I call inside driven decision making.

00:19:11: So if you have accurate data, which you're getting from via digital and automation and AI, you have a real time and a pulse check of what's going on.

00:19:22: So through that you can make evidence-based decisions instead of hypotheticals or a bit of a biased approach to what you think is really going on.

00:19:31: So digital and AI, it's everywhere.

00:19:34: Okay, excellent.

00:19:34: So it sounds like there's a lot of very exciting things happening and from the outside in it seems like it's really transforming the sector and Therefore also transforming a bit the profile of the skills that are going to be required for this sector, right?

00:19:50: I mean, I think you know traditionally this has been a very let's say engineering heavy.

00:19:55: You know mechanical engineers electric engineers, of course and then of course technicians and you know a little bit more skilled trades, right now We're seeing more of this, let's say, digital skills being relevant.

00:20:10: Can you tell me a little bit maybe for the listeners that are about to enter college or thinking about a career in energy, now there's I think a much broader spectrum of paths and therefore also skills required.

00:20:23: A little bit of advice there.

00:20:25: I can give maybe just a bit of an example.

00:20:27: I studied science.

00:20:31: Right and I'm working in consulting and I'm doing in the business world, right?

00:20:34: So not really.

00:20:36: I use my beginning of my career.

00:20:38: I did actually go into research and I use applied what I studied Later on if someone says what are you doing in consulting?

00:20:44: you studied biology?

00:20:45: I would say right, but the skill set the thinking the way you approach specific topics I've leveraged in my career.

00:20:56: So there needs to be that part.

00:21:00: There are some transferable skill sets.

00:21:03: And it requires some adaptability in our new generation.

00:21:10: You studied this, but you need to be flexible.

00:21:13: But there are some basic foundational skills they need.

00:21:15: So you do need to have some solid foundations on AI, on... maybe data science, science, some aspects like this, if you want to enter this space, and obviously to understand how the energy ecosystem works.

00:21:30: So there are some foundational expertise, but there's also some skillsets that are very transferable.

00:21:36: And the underlying thing about it is having the attitude to be agile and to accept that you need to evolve with time.

00:21:44: Okay.

00:21:45: So you're a biologist by training?

00:21:48: So we're going to put a quick pin in that.

00:21:50: We really need to come back to this point with biologists because I think I missed that in all our discussions previously.

00:21:58: If you now fast forward, so we started the conversation with the landscape now and then I ask you for a five here.

00:22:05: Now if we go real hardcore, futuristic, where is this sector going?

00:22:12: If you were to try to predict, you know, let's say more in the past the ten-year mark, maybe the twenty years down the line, given the pace of innovation and with AI now actually shortening that innovation cycle even more, could you just try?

00:22:27: I mean, I know it's going to get a bit sci-fi, but just try to, where would you see us going?

00:22:31: Is it something in nuclear?

00:22:33: Is it something in a mineral that we mine in space?

00:22:37: It's

00:22:39: going to be all of the above,

00:22:40: I would

00:22:41: say.

00:22:41: Right?

00:22:42: So you will see, I mean people don't like to talk about nuclear but I think nuclear will still be part of the mix somewhere, if not

00:22:51: here.

00:22:51: With a bigger role?

00:22:52: Possibly.

00:22:53: Possibly, right?

00:22:56: The low carbon molecules will still have a massive role.

00:22:59: Renewable energy is going to be playing because now it's cheaper.

00:23:04: the way it's going to shift will be different.

00:23:07: Okay.

00:23:08: LNG in the next five years will still have a crucial role.

00:23:11: And when we talk about digital and AI, it's going to be across the operations, across how they make decisions, across tariffs, everything.

00:23:20: Okay.

00:23:20: I think that's it.

00:23:21: That's it.

00:23:22: What I do see in the next five years is more a private sector participation in the energy sector in the region.

00:23:33: I

00:23:34: think the GCC has done enough to instill trust for investors to set up here.

00:23:43: I think with that also comes, of course, you can't think about the future of energy without thinking about the future also of mobility.

00:23:49: Right and and where that's going?

00:23:51: in terms of where are you on the?

00:23:54: I know you're not an automotive expert But you're quite closely linked to the story of EVs.

00:23:58: Yeah, where do you see that that going?

00:24:01: The EV sector.

00:24:02: there's a massive push in the in the GCC now and I've seen really two opposite spectrums when it comes to this to do to the adoption of EV in the GCC.

00:24:16: I think it will be there but it's going to be more on the hybrid side.

00:24:23: I mean, we're quoting what could happen, right?

00:24:25: But I feel that this, I don't see that in five years we're going to be a hundred percent electrical, but we will have electric.

00:24:36: But again, going back to what I said in the beginning, it's a balanced approach.

00:24:41: So you will see maybe some trucks.

00:24:43: Yes.

00:24:43: That will be on electric.

00:24:45: And even hydrogen.

00:24:46: And hydrogens and all that, right?

00:24:48: But you will still see the traditional cars, the ice and all that, right?

00:24:52: So it's not this or that.

00:24:54: That's what I think the region got it right.

00:24:57: We will go, whatever works, we're going to adopt, we're going to customize, but we're not going to let go of something that's already working well.

00:25:04: Yeah.

00:25:04: And I think, I mean, the UAE is also a very good example of that where a lot of people don't know that even though you have this massive hydrocarbon endowment here, large oil producer, relatively large gas producer, but also quite a significant also nuclear use right through the Baraka power stations in Abu Dhabi.

00:25:26: quite a diversified mix here.

00:25:28: And of course we have the great solar radiation, which generates great potential for solar, right?

00:25:34: So I think there's some very interesting things on the horizon.

00:25:36: And through, if you talk about solar, this gives you also how they're thinking of when we talked about localization and the shift like manufacturing, right?

00:25:45: Now there's a push to localize manufacturing of solar and wind components.

00:25:52: in the region, right?

00:25:54: This is very important because you're localizing, this will have massive impacts on jobs, on GDP, on localization scores, but also you're creating a hub for import-export.

00:26:06: And that will have massive implication on also providing energy, not only in the GCC but beyond.

00:26:12: Yes, I mean, I wasn't going to talk about localization, but as you know, that's my...

00:26:17: That's my passion.

00:26:18: So

00:26:18: now that you've thrown me that hook, I'll just add one point there, which is, you know, the region, one of the big, let's say, attraction factors, right?

00:26:27: For, for to bring FDI and industry into the region has always been abundant and cheap power.

00:26:33: I think the region is also now positioned also to be a provider of clean power because, you know, with CBAM, carbon border adjustment mechanism and carbon taxes, which are That's coming.

00:26:45: This is also going to be a major factor in terms of attracting industrial players.

00:26:50: Great.

00:26:51: So now we go back to Carmen, the biologist, to end it up in energy.

00:26:58: So how did that happen?

00:27:00: It's interesting.

00:27:01: Okay.

00:27:03: I think we have some time, right?

00:27:04: Yeah, I'll be quick.

00:27:06: So I, yes, I studied biology and I was pre-med.

00:27:09: I was planning to become a doctor.

00:27:10: Okay.

00:27:11: And then I decided not.

00:27:13: It wasn't what I wanted.

00:27:15: Then I went and I said, okay, I'm going to do a PhD.

00:27:19: and maybe get a job in the World Health Organization.

00:27:23: I started in the academic, so I started my masters, and I was in hardcore biomedical research.

00:27:29: That was what my masters was about.

00:27:30: And then I realized that I don't want to stay in academics for the rest of my life.

00:27:35: And that's when someone said, you know what, why don't you join consulting?

00:27:39: And because of my background, I started with the healthcare consulting.

00:27:43: And then... One partner said, Carmen, I want you on a project with me for one of the utilities in the GCC.

00:27:52: I joined and I never left.

00:27:54: Okay.

00:27:55: And that's how I ended up in the energy sector.

00:27:57: And I love it.

00:27:58: Great.

00:27:58: And you mentioned already a few of the transferable skills, but one thing I'd imagine is, you know, biology in the end, any biological system is a system, right?

00:28:07: So this type of systemic.

00:28:09: thinking and system thinking is also very present in energy.

00:28:12: Does that make any sense?

00:28:13: Yes, it does.

00:28:15: Because when you're a biologist, you also study chemistry and physics.

00:28:20: So when someone talks to me about a molecule, I understand how that works.

00:28:24: How an electrolyzer works, the science behind it.

00:28:29: get what they're saying, right?

00:28:31: So that's one of more from the technical side.

00:28:33: It's transferable, but also talking about the systematic, how you need to approach things when you want to put a hypothesis, when you want to analyze.

00:28:41: That's

00:28:41: kind of a method,

00:28:42: right?

00:28:43: Scientific method.

00:28:43: It's still the same.

00:28:44: OK, great.

00:28:45: That's a fantastic transition there.

00:28:48: Now just to move to do another energy transition, but to now to human energy and personal energy.

00:28:54: I know that at Rollenberger, you're head of the wellness committee.

00:28:58: So I think a big part of your work is to ensure that we stay healthy, well and energized.

00:29:05: How do you manage your personal energy?

00:29:07: You know, given I know you have all the demands of a very tough job, the travel, you're a mom, a wife.

00:29:16: Tell me a little bit about how you manage that?

00:29:18: Yeah it's not easy but I'll say my advice to anyone is one you need a support system whatever that is and number two time management okay and there's also a mind shift that needs to happen.

00:29:38: so think of you have levers right family social and work, career, let's just say.

00:29:46: In some instances, your career will dominate.

00:29:50: In other instances, it's family.

00:29:52: And knowing when to allow one to dominate over the other is going to be critical.

00:30:00: I think this is, and people talk about work-life balance, I would say it's more work-life integration.

00:30:08: And so when I'm with my daughter, I'm present with my daughter.

00:30:11: When I'm at work, I'm... at work, right?

00:30:14: And sometimes you have to accept that, well, I should have been in that meeting, but my daughter comes first.

00:30:20: In other instances, maybe the other way around, I can miss this, my husband can cover for me, right?

00:30:25: So there's a mindset that needs to change and you need to have a support system and you need to, yeah.

00:30:35: Time management is key.

00:30:36: Okay.

00:30:36: So it sounds a little bit like there's a trilemma also to be managed in the energy side, which is between professional family and then you, right?

00:30:44: Carmen, the woman, the person that also needs her own time, right?

00:30:49: And when it gets tough, I'll say it.

00:30:52: Sometimes I feel like, okay, is it worth it, right?

00:30:55: But then I think, okay, I want to be a role model for my daughter.

00:31:01: not a role model that she works and leaves her or no.

00:31:05: a role model that I like what I'm doing and I want her to feel that she's able to do what she she can and That whatever when she sets her mind to something she'll be able to achieve it.

00:31:14: So that also keeps me going

00:31:17: Fantastic.

00:31:17: So now that you're talking about role model just to close here Yes, could you leave the listeners with maybe your number one tip in terms of let's say how to manage your personal energy, right?

00:31:28: What would you say?

00:31:30: Well,

00:31:31: you're nugget.

00:31:33: You need to listen.

00:31:33: OK, people used to say this, and I'm going to say it.

00:31:36: OK.

00:31:37: You have to listen to your body.

00:31:38: OK.

00:31:38: Right?

00:31:40: If your body, if you're becoming, let's say, snappy a lot, maybe you're burning out.

00:31:45: Take a break.

00:31:46: OK.

00:31:47: Personally, sports is very important.

00:31:49: So I play tennis, I work out, and it helps me.

00:31:52: It's my therapy.

00:31:53: For others, it could be a pilates session, maybe spending time with fun, whatever it is, right?

00:31:58: You need to listen to your body, and you need to find what will make you re-energize.

00:32:07: So listen to your body.

00:32:09: This is the biologist speaking.

00:32:10: Yes, I guess.

00:32:11: There you go.

00:32:12: You saw

00:32:13: the link.

00:32:15: Well, thank you so much, Carmen, for this great conversation.

00:32:18: I've certainly learned a lot and I hope the listeners have also enjoyed it.

00:32:23: Thank you very much for joining us for this episode of Beyond the Deck here at Roland Burger.

00:32:29: I hope you're leaving this session just as energized as I am and you can take some of Carmen's tips with you to keep your energy as we move into this very exciting world of energy across the GCC and the world.

00:32:41: So thank you for joining us and see you next time.